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Poster: boogie Date: Dec 16, 2002 4:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: verified but not imported?


i posted a fileset recently which passed md5 checks and has since disappeared from my upload directory, but it isnt showing up in the imported shows???

another show i uploaded at the same time has made it thru

whats the word?

specifically it was the Jack Johnson J.O.A.T. compilation which i am honestly sick of doing b&ps for (~10 a week for the last year is getting old)

if there is a reason for not importing let me know

thanks

boogie

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Poster: Tyler_in_SD Date: Dec 16, 2002 11:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: verified but not imported?

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=982

Hey boogie, i think they don't want compilations on here, just straight up live recordings only i guess. Kinda sucks, since having JOAT on here really would lighten the B&P load all us seniors do for the newbies, huh?

Most likely it passed all md5's, then a human looked at the info file, and realized it was a compilation, and deleted it. I'm sure an admin will reply, but i think that's what happened, even thought it was designated a date (2001-05-18) when it was 'made' by Jason, so i dunno bro.

T

This post was modified by Tyler_in_SD on 2002-12-17 07:11:40

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Dec 16, 2002 9:50pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: verified but not imported?

This seems to be what happened (so many shows get processed I can hardly remember what happens). I checked, and indeed the JOAT compilation is in the verified-but-not-imported directory: jj2001-05-18-joat.shnf. At this time compilations are not being accepted, but hopefully not too far down the line they'll be accommodated. There are two roadblocks: 1) the site needs to be made to recognize them and not treat them as shows from a single date and 2) artists have given approval for concerts to be hosted, not for compilations, so something would have to be done about that.

Thanks for your upload though - it has not been deleted, so when we are ready to host compilations, it'll be immediately available.

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Poster: boogie Date: Dec 17, 2002 2:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: verified but not imported?


if we can get artist approval for that compilation can we get it moved over?

thanks
boogie

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbleblanc Date: Dec 17, 2002 4:03am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: verified but not imported?

This will speed up the process, but that still leaves the second roadblock that Jon pointed out:

the site needs to be made to recognize them and not treat them as shows from a single date

Currently, we're still grappling with the md5 checking issues.

-Brad

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Poster: boogie Date: Dec 17, 2002 7:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: verified but not imported?

the date thing is really not an issue in this case...its fine if it uses the "first available date" in my mind..it analogous to a "release date" for a studio album

they are all just files under it all..its not like "compilations" have some special format that requires significantly different treatment ;)

i will see if i can get the band approval and you guys can decide how you want to deal with it later

boogie

This post was modified by boogie on 2002-12-17 15:44:49

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Dec 17, 2002 10:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: verified but not imported?

from the outset this seems like a reasonable idea, but since we are archiving these concerts permanently, it seems awfully strange to me to falsely assign a date which denotes "concert date" to a compilation. part of archiving is maintaining accurate data and this is, after all, an archive.

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Poster: boogie Date: Dec 17, 2002 10:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: verified but not imported?


the date is not falsely assigned..its the date the compilation was first circulated..its release date

like i said previously..its not all live material..check the setlist (attached)

ack Johnson
Jack Of All Trades (J.O.A.T)
May 18, 2001


********************
********************

PRESERVE THE QUALITY
DO NOT ENCODE TO MP3

********************
********************


Source: [VARIOUS]
Compilation: by beatnikdaddio
Mastering: by Korz


Disc 1: "ESSENTIAL RARITIES/LIVE"
01. Thug Style [05:49.68]
02. Who's To Say? (G.A.T.E.) [02:25.65]
03. F-Stop Blues [03:28.35]
04. Inaudible Melodies [02:52.47]
05. Rodeo Clowns [02:02.74]
06. Taylor [02:59.36]
07. Posters [03:02.51]
08. Bubble Toes [02:45.44]
09. Middle Man [02:03.65]
10. Flake [02:36.73]
11. Holes To Heaven [02:29.53]
12. The News [01:35.60]
13. Drink The Water [02:38.51]
14. Nice Car, Boy [01:57.44]
15. Fall Line [01:56.14]
16. Alien Casinos [01:31.12]
17. Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer [02:09.28]
18. Acoustic Lullabie [01:54.42]
19. Just Can't Go To Sleep [01:50.74]
20. Dust My Broom/Stones In My Passway/ [01:46.26]
Ramblin' On My Mind
21. Frankie and Albert [02:40.31]
22. Thicker Than Water Acoustic Jam [01:23.06]
23. Rocky Raccoon ^ [03:43.51]
24. Who Do You Love?/Stones In My Passway/ [05:23.54]
Hellhound On My Trail/Fallin' Up >
Mudfootball ^
25. Mediocre Bad Guys + [03:56.30]
26. F-Stop Blues $ [03:05.08]
27. Timmy Curren (la-ta-de-dah) $ [02:24.18]
28. Bubble Toes (reprise) [01:04.16]

Total: [73:39.51]

^ - House Of Blues, Myrtle Beach, SC (02/24/2001)
+ - The Mint, Los Angeles, CA (01/29/2000)
$ - BOAT CD



Disc 2: "ALTERNATE TAKES/EXTRAS"
01. Rodeo Clowns (with G-love) [02:57.30]
02. Middle Man (Loose Change version) [03:16.00]
03. Flake [02:23.54]
04. Taylor [03:46.37]
05. Drink The Water [02:28.64]
06. Posters [02:46.12]
07. Inaudible Melodies [02:07.53]
08. Flake [02:33.66]
09. Middle Man [02:10.68]
10. Rodeo Clowns [01:04.23]
11. Posters [03:01.25]
12. Flake [02:42.66]
13. Drink The Water > Taylor [05:36.02]
14. FILLER: Jack Johnson, Rochester, NY (02/10/2001) [22:31.65]
Inaudible Melodies
Drink The Water
Sexy Plexi
Middle Man
Bubble Toes
Rodeo Clowns
F-Stop Blues (fade-out)

Total: [59:27.40]


Notes:
The J.O.A.T compilation is an ESSENTIAL sampler of outtakes, demos and
live performances. Drawn from many disparate sources, this collection
gives a great overview of early Jack Johnson material from the period
around the release of Brushfire Fairytales album and the first tour
opening for Ben Harper and The Innocent Criminals in early 2001.

This SHN conversion is made from source CD's received directly from
beatnikdaddio. This setlist is different from the original as some song
titles weren't known correctly at the time the compilation was first
released. I have also seperately included the setlist as originally
released for reference. The source CD's I received from beatnikdaddio
also contained 2 Ben Harper tracks as filler at the end of Disc 2 which
have been removed as they were not part of the original release and are
not directly Jack Johnson related.

The recording quality of the material varies, but in general these are
the best known versions of these tracks.

There are some defects on "Rocky Raccoon"-Disc 1/Track 23 @02:42 and @03:09,
some vinyl pops on "Rodeo Clowns"-Disc 2/Track 01, some skipping in
"Posters"-Disc 2/Track 6 @02:05 and @02:27. These were all present on the
source discs and the CD masters from what i understand.


Conversion: Source CD > Plextor PX-40TW > EAC 0.9b3 > WAV > CD Wave 1.71 >
WAV > shntool 1.01 > WAV > mkw 0.97beta1 > SHN

Conversion/Compilation (revised): boogie@dubious.com (06/28/2002)

If you would like a copy of this compilation contact me for a B&P

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Poster: boogie Date: Dec 17, 2002 12:02pm
Forum: etree Subject: in reply to a post since deleted


i posted this once, but the post it was in reply to seems to have been deleted and taken my reply with it..so here it is again...you can guess at the content of the original post if you like


----------------REPOST----------------

no one is claiming its a "show" from 5/18/2001..so i dont know why that is such an issue to people??? historically speaking that is the date it was created/released (the MOST relevant date regarding the compilation...all the dates/sources of the other material are noted where known)...if you want a more explicit note in the setlist about where the date came from i can put that in there...as far as the "policy" goes, the band sets that correct? and if they are cool with it i dont know why anyone else would be worried..i have already sent a message to them about this specific issue and look forward to their input

yes it is intended for archive..that is why i spent a year getting a clean source level copy from the guy that made it and creating the SHNs in the first place

i love the "attention to detail" regarding this compilation esp in light of fact that there are several encodings already on this site that dont even have lineages or conversion details listed...i guess as long as they are "shows" it doesnt matter if sources/setlists/etc are accurate???

the fact remains this compilation is far and away the most often traded item within the Jack Johnson community and as such an effort should be made to preserve its quality...if not a greater effort because of its relative import to that community...but then i suppose in the spirit of some of the other comments on this issue keeping a history of mainstream or "popular" items would be beneath most "true" archivists...hogwash..if anything, it's the common items that tell us the most about a group

this compilation was the catalyst for this whole jj trading scene, and as such deserves its place in this so-called archive (with its release date of 5/18/2001)..at least if you are interested in historical accuracy or import

i've said my piece on this issue...hopefully the band will endorse this compilation as acceptable to be hosted and we can put this discussion aside


boogie

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Poster: boogie Date: Dec 17, 2002 1:30pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: in reply to a post since deleted


see the thread "a clarification" above

censorship sucks and fortunately the only kind going on here is self imposed by authors

long live the archive

boogie

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffbleblanc Date: Dec 17, 2002 10:34pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: in reply to a post since deleted

no one is claiming its a "show" from 5/18/2001..so i dont know why that is such an issue to people???

The issue is this. You are posting this disc to a database of Live Concerts. Each of the 1550 entries in here share 2 things with each other.

1. The artist being recorded is known.
2. There is a single date for the performance.

The compilation in question has multiple dates for number 2. It will be the first show in here where the date of the performance is knowingly misrepresented just to fit it in.

We're not saying it shouldn't be archived, we're saying that this isn't the proper archive since this one is strictly for live concerts. Heck, we've got almost 1600 of them and folks are still shouting about not being fast enough to import theirs.

Can you understand our position? If we open the door for this one, we have to open the door for any compilation, and then we have to assign a date to each one (likely creation date, like yours). How would we file the 10 disc DMB compilation that was offered spanning 5 years of his work when the creation date isn't known? Make one up? How would users find it?

Simply put this part of the collection wasn't made for that. I'm sure there will be an area made for that at some point, and it will be separate from here with a different filing system.

this compilation was the catalyst for this whole jj trading scene, and as such deserves its place in this so-called archive

This isn't an Archive for trading scenes, it's an Archive for live concerts.

I'm not trying to bash or upset you, just trying to get you to understand that putting it into a Live Concert database isn't correct.

We have a copy, it's being preserved, when a place for it is created, you can be sure it will be one of the first items in there.

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2002-12-18 06:34:41

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Dec 17, 2002 12:53pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: in reply to a post since deleted

posts are not deleted. the etree page only displays the 50 most recent top level posts. there is a link on the side of the etree page linking to the older posts.

i'll bring up the compilation issue with others at the archive. your points are good. the issue still remains how to best maintain metadata.

you do note however, in your original post, that the material is not all live. if that is the case, i think it is not suited for this archive. what do others think?

thanks for your input.


This post was modified by Jonathan Aizen on 2002-12-17 20:53:41

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Poster: ben taylor Date: Dec 17, 2002 1:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: in reply to a post since deleted

after reading over this i must say, im on boogie's side here. this compilation is the MOST traded jack item out there. i cant say how many B+Ps ive done for this because it is SO many, and SO often requested. i think the release date would be the best way to go about archving it for people to find.

so, to ease the load of the frequent requests for trades/B+Ps for this, it would be really nice to see this live/rarities compliation on an easy to point to server for people to download.

take it easy
ben

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Poster: Erich Date: Dec 17, 2002 10:30am
Forum: etree Subject: No comps.

I think compilations shouldnt be uploaded at all. the point of the archive, as i see it, is to make all the shows from where the songs came from available. I think there should be instead a way to post the tracklisting of a comp and point to where each individual song can be downloaded. Its a waste of space, IMHO, to have duplicates of tracks because people cant make their own collections out of whats there.

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Poster: boogie Date: Dec 17, 2002 10:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: No comps.


actually not all songs on compilations come from live sources and while i see your point, nearly every trading community has a "standard" compilation that is a useful survey for the typical fan who isnt interested in downloading 30 shows...as such these "essential" collections serve their purpose

J.O.A.T. (the compilation in question here) is actually somewhat more interesting in that it is in large part what has stimulated the interest in live jack johnson music trading..typically the first thing that someone gets before they start to look for other shows..it is in fact mostly outtakes and early material..some of which has NEVER been performed live..if the artist/management is cool with its inclusion, i think it would be a valuable addition to the archive


boogie

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 17, 2002 10:17pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: compilations and archiving and dates, oh my

If archive.org were ever set up (just theoretically) to accept compilations, they would have to be filed separately from the existing "live music archive" that we have now, and in a new way other than by date.

The artificial dating of compilations has a couple major drawbacks:
-Confusion with actual live performance dates ("but Band X didn't play an extra gig that night!")
-Confusion in finding where the compilation is artificially filed. Real life example: New user looking for just about any compilation in db.etree.org, which files everything by date. The only easily findable comps are usually in extra "Band X- Compllations" sections, and even then you have to sift through the most bizarre multiple listings of pretend dates for the same comp.

(While I'm at it I'll reiterate what others have mentioned here about the whole idea of compilations possibly being out of line with what some bands were intending to permit here anyway. That's a whole different level of discussion...)

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Poster: kmmccorm Date: Jan 23, 2003 2:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: compilations and archiving and dates, oh my

this is just a thought on one aspect of this argument, but as far as the date goes, how about using 00-00-(year created)? i've seen compilations on etree labeled this way (a couple Umphrey's compilations, the Wilco Yankee Hotel Foxtrot outtakes), so if a compilation was created in 2002, give it a date of 00-00-2002. this will eliminate the confusion of "they didn't play a show on that date", but for all i know may open up some other problems.

2 cents,
kevin

This post was modified by kmmccorm on 2003-01-23 10:09:04

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